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February 10th, 2011

In Technology

10 Comments

The decline of Groovy?

(written by Lawrence Krubner, however indented passages are often quotes)

A year ago I spent some time playing around with Groovy. I really like the language. If I suddenly had to do some JVM work, I would certainly consider Groovy. I’ve only done trivially things with it, but I like it. So I am pained to think it is failing:

Eventually developers built Groovy-based products, such as Gant, Gradle, Griffon and Groovy++. So in late 2009 the despots at Codehaus created a new brand, the “Gr8 family of products”, consisting of Groovy, Grails, Griffon, Gradle, and 4 empty slots. Their advertising never mentions Gant or Groovy++. By choosing a fixed number, the brand controllers are asserting a limited membership in the Gr8 product league, a common game-theory technique to maintain control over the supply. Gradle and Griffon are in, Gant and Groovy++ are out. In fact Guillaume has written Gaelyk, really just a small module for Groovy, but has branded it as a separate standalone product and included it in Gr8. Nothing like two voting rights in the league. The Groovy language community is a tightly-run cathedral posing as a bazaar, and anyone who doesn’t toe the line is out. That’s the third reason for Groovy’s fall.

In fact, they’re lucky if they’re not harrassed. In 2006 I started writing documentation for newbies to Groovy, naively expecting to slowly work my way into the Groovy Language community. Instead, I endured almost three years of cold-shouldering, warnings and death threats, an email account breakin, FUD spread around here about doing any IT business with me, and eventually someone from overseas paying to have surveillance installed in my apartment. Many developers eventually leave, such as John Wilson who hung on longer than most building Ng, while others get funding, such as Alex Tkachman to build Groovy++. The “Groovy/Grails community” is a veneer over a strict profit-based regime, another reason for Groovy’s eventual demise.

Source

My name is Lawrence Krubner. I run WP Questions .


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10 COMMENTS

February 10, 2011
5:47 pm

By Alex Tkachman

Lawrence, I never got funding for developing Groovy++. Exactly opposite, company I co-own sponsor development of Groovy++.

February 10, 2011
6:10 pm

By lawrence

Alex, thank you for pointing that out.

February 10, 2011
8:38 pm

By Danno Ferrin

As one of the founders of Griffon, I take personal offence at the charactrization that a game of favorites was played, and that corporate interests are paramount. All of my time spent on Griffon was entirely unfunded and the most compensation I ever got out of it was a paid trip to New Orleans. (and I don’t even drink). The key always has been show up and contribute something useful. Your company or money never mattered.

P.s. does anyone want to help me raise an angel round for an android startup ;p

February 10, 2011
9:29 pm

By lawrence

Danno Ferrin, I am really impressed with Griffon and I look forward to working with it more.

PS. is the Android startup based around Groovy

February 11, 2011
1:36 am

By Guillaume Laforge

If you make such conclusions (Groovy’s “fail”) reading what this guy is writing… then you’ll be versed into complot theories, spy stories, bribing, and other thriller movie tricks. Before trusting one single person with strange views, look around, look into the friendly community, the projects, the guys behind those projects, rathen than drawing false conclusions.

February 12, 2011
3:23 pm

By lawrence

Guillaume Laforge, the language itself is a joy. I thank you for your contributions. Still, G2One was acquired by SpringSource. I worry what the long-term consequences will be.

February 13, 2011
2:42 pm

By Andres Almiray

I think some people are reading ‘too much’ into this “gr8 family”. There are no 8 spots for such group. gr8 is a phonetic shortcut for “great” and nothing more [see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gr8. There are no favorites in the groovy ecosystem. Every project does it best to fulfill its purpose, whether people find them useful for their day jobs is for everyone to find out. One thing is true, all developers working in Groovy related projects support one another in their own way, be it code patches, code reviews, project crosspollination or just a few friendly messages with constructive critique and/or words of encouragement. I guess in the end we’re just developers that simply enjoy using Groovy to scratch their own itch.

February 13, 2011
7:49 pm

By lawrence

Thank you, Andres Almiray. Your blog is an endless source of information.

February 24, 2011
2:47 am

By Gavin Grover

A death threat, US-based email interception, and overseas-involved apartment surveillance all came in late 2007, all related to my work on Groovy at that time. Perhaps it was just one developer involved. Now I’m back working on the Groovy Language, primarily Gregexes. If that sort of stuff happens again, I won’t stay quiet this time.

March 16, 2011
9:31 am

By Reji

Groovy is gr8. Groovy++ has got me excited, but I’m really reluctant to use Groovy++ at work on real projects, this is mainly cause there NO ONE from the Groovy core team seems to be giving their views/direction. Yes, there are a few giving tips, like Paul King, …

Could someone (Groovy/SpringSource team) honestly give their views on the various (sub) projects that are outside SpringSource/gr8. Till then I will happily live in Scala land, cause statically/strong typed matters big to us.

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